A taste of our planning group

By Diane Chapman

I want a shortcut to Stater Bros.? Comments like this populated the Ramona Community Planning Group meeting April 3. Dennis Sprong, arriving late, felt he needed a faster way to get to the store. And we also learned that Dennis wanted a straighter road on Dye Street because it bothered him that people went fast on this stretch of road.

This is just a taste of the educated and scientific notations from our planning group leaders during the meeting. It was interesting to watch. One would think that perhaps it was orchestrated far in advance. Don’t worry, folks. We are in very good hands.

The majority of people in attendance were against the South Bypass, all four phases. But that did not prevent Jim Piva (I loved the Warnock solar plant before I hated it fame) from ignoring Carl Hickman’s suggestions that we move this item up on the agenda. And while going out of his way to suggest that everyone in Ramona wants a win-win and spending quite a bit of time on this happy theme with the organic farm issue, he neglected to be as magnanimous when addressing Donna Myers, Ken and Patty Brennecke, Joe Minervini and everyone else who came to oppose the bypass. By the way, is there a time limit on the chairman’s comments and asides? He took the lion’s share of the air in the room last night.

“It will be over 50 years before we get to the Southern Bypass on Keyes Road,” says Jim, “so don’t bring this up if you are going to talk.” Then why not vacate this road, asked Kathy DaSilva? Others brought this up as well to no avail. More importantly, those who own property and business concerns that are affected by the bypass must disclose this during a sale and it will affect the value of their property.

Mr. Hickman conceded that the bypass, Keyes Road phase, would not solve any of the current and future traffic issues that Ramona faces. He wisely observed that as long as we keep this portion of the bypass on the list, it gives Caltrans an out to fix the real problem — Highway 67.

Most people with common sense agree that the focus on traffic should be the areas of growth (Cumming Ranch, Montecito Ranch) and the limited scope of Highway 67 to handle traffic as is. There is no growth coming from the Estates and Keyes Road.

Hey, don’t worry everyone, says Jim, the Southern Bypass will not be built in my lifetime.

But then, the time to vote came and Jim had a clever resolution. Put the Dye Road straightening and the new Dye Road bypass at Mussey Grade phases of the bypass onto the Top 10 roads list for the county. The fix was in. But Jim, why would we do the first 2 phases if the Keyes Road phase will never be built?

Richard Tomlinson, a civil engineer on the board, stated that the Dye Road portion was not necessary, that to straighten out the two 90 degree turns on the road would mean faster speeds and thus more serious head-on accidents. Ken Brennecke had provided data earlier that stated there were no fatal accidents on Dye Road, that the few that were recorded were nondescript. In other words, there are no safety issues. So while it may bother Dennis that people go faster than they should, the money spent on this, $16 million, will not affect a change and may make it worse.

Chad Anderson weighed in with his scientific observation from childhood. Someone had gone straight ahead instead of taking the 90 degree turn on Dye Road. Therefore, the road must be straight. Falling in line with the other “straight road” club members.

But don’t worry, everyone. The Keyes Road portion of the project will not be built in our lifetime. Then why build it? Why is it still on the list? Why not take if off and pressure Caltrans to come up with a real solution? That solution is to fix Hwy. 67 to 10th Street.

Kevin Wallace, a board member, lamented the fact that we were in a rush to turn Ramona into Poway. And most of the room agreed with him.

There is no doubt that the Hwy. 67 and Highland is one of the worst traffic problems. Caltrans has been given money to enlarge and elongate this area and create a right-hand turn lane that would take the Estates traffic off Hwy. 67 earlier and alleviate the congestion. With this in mind, many citizens asked why the need for this phase of the Southern Bypass then?

Once again, no answer. But hey, don’t worry, the Keyes Road portion will not be built in our lifetimes. So go ahead and rip up a rural area and build a redundant road that will not be necessary with the Caltrans work that has been approved.

Last but not least is an interesting road project — the proposed and non-feasible Ramona Street extension. Never mind that a woman on a ventilator who lives on Hanson Lane gave the planning group the enormous traffic numbers on her street. Over 9,000 cars pass by her home on a daily basis, she said. This is the Hanson Lane that intersects Ramona Street.

Tomlinson is one of the few board members to have visited the site. He told the room that the road is a bad idea, he cannot see how it can be built and, worse, at least one home will be destroyed for Dennis’ road to Stater Brothers. This road would be dumping traffic onto a road where three schools reside. To date, the study for this road is almost up to $1 million. Ken and Patty Brennecke as well as Jim Cooper have said this road makes no sense. The engineering and traffic data are ignored and few board members have visited the site. Yet, they are willing to vote on this? Anyone from the Estates contemplating this new route would be going backwards to get to town. There would be a stop sign near the Ramona Street and Dye Road portion of the road and it would take longer. And thus, this route would not be used.

Finally, Jim Piva called for a vote and he had a clever resolution. The way he created his road list and structured the vote for the entire list, not road by road. This meant that Donna Myers was excluded from voting. During the Transportation and Trails meeting, the list of road projects were voted on one by one, a fair way to vote.

Due to political maneuvering, Piva took the right to vote from Donna. A conflict of interest, he told her. Yet, what about Dennis Sprong, who lives on Gem Lane, next to the Keyes Road phase of the bypass. And what about Eb Hogervorst, who has family/financial interests in the chicken farm that is along the bypass route. Carl Hickman is a county employee in the traffic department and should have been excused for wearing two hats, county and Ramona.

It was great Kabuki theater by our chairman and his team. I hope more citizens will come to these meetings and take a stand. Otherwise, a small group will dictate what happens in Ramona.

Diane Chapman is a Ramona resident.

Related posts:

  1. County, planning group invite public to tour emergency evacuation route
  2. Skatepark Committee seeks show of public support at Jan. 10 planning group meeting
  3. Review Road Priority Project list
  4. Subcommittee proposes dropping South Bypass from road priority list
  5. How to cripple Main Street business and destroy land values, way of life

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Posted by Maureen Robertson on Apr 9 2014. Filed under Commentary. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.

35 Comments for “A taste of our planning group”

  1. Guest

    I couldn’t disagree with you more. RCPG got it right. As should be the case in a representative form of government, they represented their constituents, not a fringe group with only their own interests at heart. Kudos to Jim Piva! I have known him for a very long time. He is a good man who has the best interests of the community at heart. Your criticism of him was spiteful, petty, and baseless.

    My question is why does the Sentinel continue to give this small, vocal, NIMBY fringe so much line space? The authors may change but it seems like a constant, one after the other, litany of articles complaining about the bypass. It is the same thing over and over. These people do not represent the majority of residents of Ramona, even if they all show up at the RCPG meetings.

    So, what’s next? I’m calling my shot – we’ll have Ramona Resident insulting any of us who support the bypass. Joe Minervini will want to debate each one of us in the park because Joe Cahak rightfully wants nothing to do with him. The act is getting old and tiresome.

    • Ramona Baller

      Before committing millions towards a project this divisive, why don't you wait to see how the planned improvements affect things? This problem did not arise overnight. Only a fool would think it will be solved so easily.

      • Guest

        Guess I missed slightly – I should have broadened my statement to say that those not in favor of the bypass will come out with insults. That is always the sign of having lost the battle on facts. No facts to back up your argument so the next best thing to do is to insult the opposition.

        • Ramona Baller

          Not only did you fail to respond to the point by making no argument against the conservative approach to first assess the planned improvements, you appear to have made personal attacks on Ms. Chapman in several of your comments here. (“get a grip” etc.). In fact, my comment did not suggest you were the “fool” Guest. Rather, I presumed a person of your character would also agree that before investing millions in taxpayer dollars (as Ramona’s School Board did years ago), the community should first evaluate the planned improvements already slated. Shame on me. I’m sure a person of your community spirit, would however, step up to lead support for higher property taxes for the community to pay for all of the road improvements you envision.

          • Honest Resident

            Yes, sometimes we must pay for the improvements from which we will all benefit. By "community", I'm quite sure you really mean "opponents" – judging by the tone of your letters. The Sentinel has become Ms. Chapman's platform for opposition to many needed improvements in our town. It's too bad that the loudest voices in our community are the RWNJs.

          • RWNJ

            Wait a minute — Don't lump us in with Ms. Chapman!

          • Guest

            First, there are multiple "Guests" here. I simply stated that insults would be forthcoming. If others make insults as "Guest" it is not my issue.

            Second, we have been talking about fixing the mess for years. While I normally embrace a conservative approach, there is not need to wait and see in this case. Anybody who drives that stretch of road knows exactly what needs to be done. True, a turn lane would help, but as another stated so correctly, Phase 1 between Hwy 67 and Dye Road would do more to relieve congestion than any of the other proposals.

            Lastly, no additional tax dollars are needed for any of this. As I am sure you are aware the state sets aside (at least that's what they said when we voted for the highway tax) for highway improvements. We are already taxed for these improvements. We just need them to be done.

          • Joe Minervini

            Guest, You write "Phase 1 between Hwy 67 and Dye Road would do more to relieve congestion than any of the other proposals." After meeting with a senior road engineer with County DPW, I received the impression that his assessment was the Phase 1, aka Dye STREET would do more to create congestion at 2 intersections, one at Dye Rd. and the other at Mussey Grade Rd. Can you imagine the traffic back-up at Dye Street and Mussey Grade during the morning commute ? ….as well as the back-up at Dye STREET and Dye Road during the evening commute ? Can you imagine what would happen during an emergency evacuation problem at Mussey Grade if Dye STREET were constructed ? Please state specifically how you think Phase 1 will relieve congestion ? Lastly, extending the 67 right turn lane at Dye Road all the way back to to Mussey Grade will negate the need for Dye Street. Write me and I will send you a map, with traffic counts, expounding what I say….:
            jminervini1@cox.net ….is that fair enough ?

          • otherguest

            These improvements are already funded as part of existing taxes. It is not funded by Ramona exclusively. It is a fed/state/county funded project. If they dont spend the money here, they are going to go elsewhere and spend it (not saying I like that either). This whole conversation is a waste of time and too late to effect anything. RCPG is just a community action group, it has no authority. San Diego County has the final say and they support the project with or without RCPG.

  2. Joe Cahak

    Perhaps you forgot to mention, Diane, how members of the CFARR group, the group you defend, have used hostility, subterfuge and divisive comments to make your points. While others have the RIGHT to speak in the public forum, beware anyone that speaks against the CFARR groups ideas and opinions.

    Carol Fowler and I, the only 2 who spoke up for the Bypass, were ridiculed and harassed by CFARR group members, after we left the meeting. This is outrageous and I intend to speak at the next meeting to see that condemnation of said harassment is put in the public record. The group has used hostile and bullying tactics all along and call it community interest. Carol Fowler was certainly intimidated by the group’s actions after the meeting, as was I. I will continue to expose the lies of CFARR. There have been plenty of false statements, harassing and derogatory statement against those of us corresponding on the article comments section. Some of it very damaging to your cause and positions. I might further add that the group has made some very concerning statements and actions to not only general public members of the RCPG, but have also downright harassed our planning group members. Many of us in the community are sick and tired of those tactics and messages. I have never heard more divisive statements in Ramona than I have heard from this group.

    As far as Donna Myers being excluded from comments or voting, she was excluded from making statements or voting as she should have been. This is how the rules work.

    While you may get away with hostile tactics with planning group members, doing so to other citizens may end up in court for the proper hearing for defamation or liable. We will be watching the group’s actions much closer and looking for the means to take action against its members legally. We are particularly concerned at the level of threats and derogatory statements coming from many of the group members. This is not good politics and certainly is not what Ramona should represent. Stop the lies and bullying NOW. We’ve had our taste of the CFARR group and don’t like it.

    • Joe Minervini

      To: Joe Cahak,_You have written too many times about being "ridiculed and harassed by CFARR group members, after we left the meeting." Now, let me reply, As I and two of my neighbors were leaving the meeting, you shouted out across the parking lot something about a resident on San Vicente fighting the County about what he was being offered for taking of his property for the road widening there. You said something like, "He only ended up with $15,000." I shouted back to you, "You know what you can do with that $15,000." That was the total exchange and my neighbors can vouch for that. Had I known there was a lady with you, I would not have said what I did. I have asked you many, many times to meet with me and have a debate

  3. guest

    Diane, this is simply bitter, insulting and full of bias. The methods being used by you and Mr. Minervini are less than honorable.

  4. Honest Resident

    Ms. Chapman you have obviously run out of serious objections and have resorted to petty insults. I’ll be attending the planning group meeting to also speak in support of these road changes.It’s time we take our town back from members of groups that keep our town in the last century.

  5. Guest

    Please get a grip Ms Chapman. You didn't do yourself any favors with this rant

  6. guest

    Extending the right turn lane at Dye road (heading north) back to Mussey Grade to ease backup traffic when light is red. Timing of the light changes in all directions can be appraised and then tweaked as needed during peak traffic……

  7. guest

    I agree. That would enhance the intersection after they finish Phase 1 and 2 of the southern bypass.

    • Joe Minervini

      To; Guest,
      First, I would like to carry on a conversation with you, in person about your point above. You state "That would enhance the intersection after they finish Phase 1 and 2 of the southern bypass." I disagree totally about the "….after they finish Phase I.."
      portion of your statement. And, I will be happy to show you maps, traffic counts, meet with you in the field at the intersection of your "Phase 1" and Mussey Grade Rd. and show you what a terrible mistake supporting "Phase 1" would be…especially in a Wildfire Evacuation scenario. We can go on and on with these meaningless comments in the Sentinel. I would continue to receive more insults from Joe Cahak, We could probably go on for another 6 months. I will ask you and other "guests" to meet with me anywhere you wish to discuss the issues with the facts we bring before all of us. Isn't that the fairest way of conducting this matter ? Cahak will not discuss/debate me, will you? I'll bring the coffee and donuts and try to get a Sentinel reporter there to mediate the debate/discussion.
      Joe Minervini
      619/204-0391

  8. Joe Minervini

    Dear Honest Resident, I and most of Ramona moved here because we loved the rural way of life. You may disagree and want more homes, apartment houses, more shopping centers, etc., but that's your opinion and your right to say so. We do not want Powayfiication of Ramona. The guest above calls my methods "less than honorable." Joe Cahak in his letter above refers to me about as follows : "hostility, subterfuge and divisive comments, ridiculed and harassed, outrageous harassment, hostile and bullying, the lies of CFARR, false statements, harassing and derogatory statements divisive statements, hostile tactics, defamation or liable, take action against its members legally, threats and derogatory statements, lies and bullying." So who's the bully, who's making threats ? …as for him debating me in public, he said he rather "chew glass"….. how's that for being "divisive. Honest resident, perhaps you will debate/discuss with me….maybe we'll both learn something. Call me: 619/204-0391

    • Mike

      Joe with all sincerity I can appreciate the fact you moved here during a rural time and wish it to stay so. However neither you or I have the power to stop evolution. Growth and urbanization are coming to Ramona. In fact they have been here for some time but now we are starting to see it daily due to shortcomings and limitations in our infrastructure.

      Those who aren't retired, who don't work in town or who are raising small children need bigger localized shopping options and a smoother ingress and egress to the surrounding communities and cities.

      If you find yourself close to retirement or with adult children or otherwise in a different period of life than I suggest you find a residence off the 78 between Main and San Pasqual – I don't see much change occurring anytime soon in that area. Or there is always Santa Ysabel, Julian, Kentwood in the Pines or you could build on a piece of land near the S2 (Scissors Crossing). Good luck with your grocery shopping though. Might I suggest you buy your own dairy cow to start?

  9. Guest

    Interesting, I said a week ago that those opposed to the bypass would throw out insults and Joe Minervini would want to debate. So predictable.

  10. guest

    Welcome to Ramona! Good luck in getting them to honestly talk about roads and their potential impacts to the community. Your desire to discuss an issue is a guarantee to draw out personal attacks and threats towards you and any other who may be of the same opinion.

    When the opposing view has a complete lack of substance in their arguments, it’s a sure fire way to get yourself called the perceived dreaded, nasty, God awful name of “NIMBY”! LOL When in all actuality, a wise person recognizes that it’s the impacted person who is the most informed, dedicated and passionate about a topic. Meaning, the NIMBY is who you want to hear out.

    Sadly, when the perception is that you’re making too much progress in the community, the treat of suing you in court will be thrown out there as well. That usually works well to stifle some of the others (non NIMBYS) who agree with you, but will ultimately choose not to speak out under that kind of duress. That law suit threat typically works well to shut folks up.

    By the looks of these comments, you must be viewed as a giant in the land of the little people.

    • Dennis

      I've yet to hear how the author would be impacted by this. As I understand it, she's an SDCE resident. As for Mr Minervini, seems to me he's been heard out time and again. The term "ad nauseum" seems to fit. When is enough enough?

    • Joe Minervini

      Whoever wrote the preceding, thanks. When Cahak first started his attacks, I asked him to debate me…..not in a back alley somewhere, but in a public place. I even suggested Collier Park, under the big canopy. Cahak refused to meet and discuss the substantive issues and facts. I will be the first one to admit that I am not always correct in my positions and I have always welcomed debate from those who disagree with my view of things. Its been more than once, that I changed my views because of discussion and debate. All my friends know that. Cahak will not meet with me because he thinks I will harm him. I am going on 72, and I have been known more of a defender than an attacker. Cahak will do his best to attack me with more of his insults and unsubstantiated accusations at the next RCPG meeting.
      God bless the USA for giving him that right.

      • Guest

        Again, I fail to understand why you think that anybody owes you a debate. Let's say you and Joe Cahak debate at Collier Park; what then? You have a vested interest in not seeing the bypass completed. Cahak, along with the majority of the RCPG, believe it is in the best interest of the community to complete the project. Even if Cahak were to change is mind and come to share your view, what then? He is not a member of the RCPG. He has cast no swing vote on this issue. Seems to me a debate is nothing more than yet another forum to try to press your views on others.

  11. So Much Fun

    It is a shame that a vocal few are getting so much press.
    Time & time again, our ELECTED planners have voted to improve traffic flow in our community by improving circulation roads.

    Hwy 67 coming into town much of the afternoon is a mess until traffic gets past Dye Rd. I've read some comments here about how this Dye Rd improvement only helps the folks in the SDCE. That can't be farther from the truth. For those heading into town, they are stuck behind all the folks that cannot get onto Dye Rd. The intersection simply cannot handle the volume. I streamline way to move through it is sorely needed.

    We need road connections such as Ramona Street to Dye Road in order to relieve traffic on Main Street & Hanson Lane (where there are lots of pedestrians). A vocal few have cost us a lot of money with stall tactics & complaints. Every time there is a delay to reconsider, there is a cost from the County. We have already invested a great deal of our County money in the Ramona Street connection & the Dye Road project. Let's just get it done instead of spinning our wheels.

    • Joe Minervini

      To: So Much Fun,
      I agree about "…. those heading into town, they are stuck behind all the folks that cannot get onto Dye Rd." Constructing what some call Phase 1, aka "Dye Street" will not do much about the problem you state. The way to best solve the "…. those heading into town" problem, is to extend the right turn lane on 67 on to Dye Rd. all the way back to Archie Moore. Unfortunately, that would cost millions. Lets meet at Packards (I'll buy) I will show you that I have recently asked CALTRANS to extend the subject right turn lane back to Mussey Grade Rd. & that will help just a bit. Advocating putting in Phase 1 of the Bypass will create a dangerous mess with Mussey Grade Rd. commuters….PLEASE look at a map, you will see the intersection of Dye Street/Phase 1 AND Mussey Grade AND Hwy 67…are all within 50 yards of each other ! What if there's a wildfire !!!!
      Call me: 619/204-0391, Joe

  12. Wondering

    This is about more than traffic and roads. I listened intently as a plan for Elliot Pond behind Stater Brothers was presented at the last RCPG meeting. When public comment began, a woman said there is zoning for a "big box store" on that land. Why, we could have a Target store she said! Would people come to Ramona to shop at Target? Then we have the people who want Main Street to have "walkability" and Ramona to be a "destination". Julian is packed with people every week end. It has become a destination. Our Main Street is in fact state Highway 67 and people use it to get somewhere. It will probably never be walkable to the degree people wish. The Dye Road intersection will be adjusted. It's already approved and private debates won't make it better. Presenting good ideas to the RCPG and the county might help tweak the existing intersection plan. Fighting will not. Developing a small walkable shopping/dining area off of Main Street (Hwy 67) with perhaps room for a Farmer's Market or a medium size store that does not compete with the Mom and Pop's might slow things down, give us an attractive destination as the tourists head for Julian (which is still quaint), and let Main Street flow. We need to improve traffic flow and intersections while realizing the limitations of Hwy 67. It is a state highway and that won't change. Whether right or wrong, it is my opinion that a bypass will simply make it easier for people to get to Julian and the desert and in the other direction, to neighboring cities. Is that why we live here? Maybe the overall plan for Ramona should be analyzed with community members as participants.

    • Newbie

      As someone who has lived in Ramona for only two years, I totally agree with your post Wondering. I think town planners made a mistake when the town center (if you can call it that) was placed along Hwy 67. I live on the east end of Ramona and I like living here but I never think of Ramona as a place to stop and do anything. I simply drive through either going to work, recreation/shop,etc or someplace else or driving through on the way home. On weekends it's almost more intuitive for me to turn east to Julian or parts in that direction for something to entertain myself and family with. if it wasn't for Mt Woodson golf course I may never stop anywhere in Ramona. As much as I love living here, I wish I had known about the terrible traffic along Hwy 67 and the divisive disarrayed state the planning is for the future – otherwise I think I would have chosen Poway instead. The complete disarray of plans for the community and the bleak outlook for Ramona just add to my buyers remorse. Those tired looking so called antique shops along Hwy 67/78, do they even make any money? no where to park, stroll, look, cross without getting run over by cars eager to get away from the stifling traffic of the last 10 miles. In all honesty the only thing that should be on Hwy 67/78 are gas stations…everything else should be off Hwy 67/78. Main street should really run paralleled either north or south side of Hwy 67/78. that would begin to create a destination. Right now main street is nothing but Hwy 67/78 regardless of what you call it. I think the idea of a botanical garden is excellent, I think the southern bypass is a waste of time. We already have a through way it's called Hwy 67/78, instead let's put adult people shoes on and reconfigure the town properly and get ready for the inevitable growth that will keep coming. Very soon the County BOS will begin to discount Ramona and start making decisions for it due to its lack of direction. let's make Ramona a worthy place to live, shop, visit, stay.

      • guest99

        We are here because we like to live in the country, have fresh air, enjoy open space, hear birds sing and enjoy the flora and fauna which have all but disappeared form the city. Antique stores are just that, and it sounds like antiques and collectibles are not really your "cup of tea". (That is fine.) They are representative of how things were when this town started. That's why most of them are in the "old town" section of Ramona. Have you had a chance to visit Julian, Old Town San Diego, or the antique stores/malls down in east San Diego? If so, you would see that the crowded little vignettes are "de riguer" for that genre. Ramona's development from a main street outward, seems pretty average to me. We are a town, where people live, work, shop and do business. Sorry, but we are not a resort town, "destination" town, where tourists flock, and frankly, most of us don't want that! Those types of towns have a high transiency rate, have a lot of crime, committed by people who come to take advantage and couldn't care less about the people who make it their home. Ask any resident of Del Mar how they personally feel about the Fair or the Races.

  13. Joe Minervini

    I wonder why many of the people posting here do not wish to debate many of the issues which are the topic. No, I'm not talking about a debate hiding behind our anonymous computer screens, using all sorts of names except our own. I have asked Joe Cahak to debate with me…..he refuses. We should all be reminded that debates were one of the tools that made this country great. We debated at the Constitutional Convention, we debated the Vietnam War, giving women the right to vote, slavery, etc. but yet no one wants to publicly debate the issues on this roads topic. I think Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton would be depressed knowing we didn't learn much from their willingness to debate.
    Joe 619/204-0391

    • Guest

      You have taken history out of context. Yes, debate is good, but the debate needs to be between RCPG and those who oppose the bypass, not between you and anybody who opposes your point of view.

      I disagree with your assessment of the Founders' feelings on this subject; I believe they would be thrilled to see that our elected officials have voted in accordance with the wishes of those they were put into office to represent.

    • Joe

      Mr Minervini, perhaps before invoking the founding fathers and how they would be depressed, you should do more a bit more research. The Founding Fathers were staunch federalists and would of crushed, with force, opposition once an agreement was in place.

  14. Guest

    We've all heard your point of view Mr Minervini.

  15. guest99

    I live in Ramona and I do as much business, shopping and living here as is possible. If there were nothing here, but wineries, bars, gift and antiques shops, it would make for a lovely Sunday afternoon, but I wouldn't have much on which to spend my money. Since, I live here, I like to stay close to home. If there were more of the sorts of necessary businesses that we need in our everyday lives, I would never have to go spend my money anywhere else! I love saving time, gas and the environment. I don't utilize e-cigarettes, Pool halls, beer and wine tastings, tattoo parlors, and such types of businesses.

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