Stop Common Core in Ramona

By Diane Chapman

Many parents have not heard of Common Core—yet.

It is a top-down education mandate run at the national level. The states and local communities lose control over what their children are taught. The end goal is to produce in a socialist fashion workers for corporations. For instance, Common Core teaches only 50% classical literature. The other 50% is just information text.

Many great works of art won’t be taught. Moral truths, right and wrong, skills in making wise decisions, how to be responsible citizens, the value of liberty are taught in classical literature.

Across the nation, parents are fighting back. Maybe you have read some of the recent findings that are alarming parents: A textbook company contracted to produce materials under the Common Core State Standards is trying to teach students as young as second grade about economic fairness by praising unions, protests and labor leader Cesar Chavez, according to an education watchdog group. In another example, Buena High School in Sierra Vista, Ariz., acknowledged parental pressure and removed the sexually explicit novel, “Dreaming in Cuban” by Cristina Garcia. Garcia’s book is among several where school officials suggest parents simply submit “opt out” forms for their students if they object to the selection.

The news about Common Core and Math is just as bad. In a recent policy paper, two professors on the Common Core Validation Committee, R. James Milgram and Sandra Stotsky, observe that the math progression does not reach precalculus. College students who did not take a precalculus course in high school rarely go on to earn a bachelor’s degree in a STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics) area.

The good news is that school board member Bob Stoody is aware of the above issues and has given me permission to share the following:

“At December’s board meeting I shared on the illegitimate history of Common Core and gave an overview of my concerns about Common Core (sharing some of the information contained in these DVDs). Also, I (and some of the other board members) had previously requested a Community Common Core Workshop this spring (so the community can voice their concerns and opinions). The board agreed to have this workshop (the date and location is being finalized).

“Here are some of the bullet points shared at the meeting:

“The federal government has no Constitutional authority to enforce Common Core (though it can act as a liaison for the states that wish to bring about a standardization of measurement — in this the federal government should have no enforcement, or punitive, power to impose decrees (as happened when Secretary of Education Arne Duncan threatened to cut off federal education funds to California earlier this year).

“There has been no ‘viable’ local (or state) input on Common Core or Common Core Standards.

“The district should create a board policy identifying what it will, and will not, allow with Common Core and the testing that goes with it. A Ramona Unified School District Common Core approach should not be usurped by Federal Common Core or State Common Core requirements.

“Any district training (or implementation) thus far has been primarily on “HOW to teach” not “WHAT to teach” in Common Core — which is backwards from the normal curriculum adoption standards and board policies. This must be fixed. There has been no curriculum adoption thus far on Common Core (or purchases of textbooks, etc.). While it can be good to revise our teaching methods (through training), is it wasteful to invest too much time or money until we know “what” we are teaching? If we continue this way our ability to provide local control will be diluted.

“The district should not accept any funds that require us to “yield our local control” or make any long-term promises concerning Common Core.

“Local control must be defined as control by the board of the neighborhood school district — not control by a county board of education.

“I will let you know more as the workshop date and location is finalized. I am hoping for a large turnout of concerned parents and citizens.

“Please come to the workshop when it is announced. Nothing can be more important than the education of our children.”

As Abraham Lincoln wisely observed: “The philosophy of the classroom today will be the philosophy of government tomorrow.”

Diane Chapman is a Ramona resident.

Related posts:

  1. What is Common Core?
  2. State allocates $1.17 million to Ramona school district to implement Common Core
  3. The teacher, not the program or money, makes the difference
  4. Ramona district outlines plans for new way of teaching
  5. Ramona teachers to focus on professional development Friday

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Posted by Maureen Robertson on Jan 30 2014. Filed under Commentary. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.

44 Comments for “Stop Common Core in Ramona”

  1. Honest Resident

    There are so many falsehoods and conspiracy theories in this post you have to wonder why the Sentinel gives ink to the right-wing wackiness that is, unfortunately, so rampant in Ramona. It starts out with a lie about it being a National standard, it's not, it's a State-driven set of standards adopted now by 45 states, and plunges right into a fantasy about "socialist fashion workers."
    Your assertion that it has some sort of illegitimate history would come as a surprise to the National State Governors Assoc., who have created it. Your misunderstanding of the benefits of our children having common skills in Math and English is very sad. You would prefer to further reduce the funding to our schools, make our children fall behind, in your misplaced fear of modern education. Several of your supposed quotes are plain falsehoods.
    Are you saying that Bob Stoody is against Common Core – State Standards Initiative? Are these his quotes? Since he gave you "permission" to share them, I assume these are his views! Now, that's something we should all remember at next school board election, our school board looks like they will bend to the RWNJs, dooming Ramona to outdated thinking when it comes to our children's education.

    • Jane Tanaka MD

      I attended the four hour long RUSD board meeting in December. The quotes should be understood in the context that this was the meeting the board had to present its financial dire straits, and Mr Stoody was obviously vigilent about cost/savings/ funding issues. He also spoke about the money given to the districts for the common core goes to the County inservices for training of teachers etc. He also raised questions of duplication of expenses ( common core vs general budget). It seemed clear to me that he was not so much opposed to common core ideologically or politically… but was focused on the finances of it.

    • Amastris

      Take your talk about right-wing wackiness up with ENTIRE NY
      Teacher's Union. This is not a right versus left issue. This is about educating children well. Even the very Liberal NY Teacher's Union wants out. Do your research! CA schools will be required to give either math or english Common Core Standards test at the end of this year in replacement of the S.T.A.R. CST testing. Research that as well. They don't even have statistical assessments set up for the tests. The test is a "guinea pig" and you will have one academic subject this year where you will not be given a breakdown on how will your child is doing and/or what areas they have struggles.

      My 7th grader who qualifies G.A.T.E. and is currently taking Algebra 1 and receiving grades as high as 101% on mid-terms and finals and already has aspirations to attend Stanford (without my push) is coming to me in distress about the Common Core standards. The convoluted word problems that take more the 3 times the steps and require you to "show your work" give no leeway to move outside a very rigid structure. He complains of math problems that are on surface quite simple and making them in to a complicated mess. This is coming from an Advanced student. He says, "I'll do what I have to get the grade," after he tells me his teacher says next year, in 8th grade, when he goes into Geometry and Common Core is fully implemented, it will be a very difficult class and near impossible to attend a good grade.

      Unfortunately, for the average student, because California is controlled 100% by Democrats, they will have to start failing on a massive scale to do a thing about it. On the fortunate side, it will be a majority Democrat children who will suffer and incur the education gap for the segment of time this 3-ring circus is implemented, while my son, will continue to do "whatever it takes" to get the grades and get into Stanford. I cannot wait for the rude awakening of the costs and ramifications of Democrat policies to come to fruition. Much, like ObamaCare, they'll learn that their policies don't only harm right-wingers but left-wing radical hippies as well.

      • Honest Resident

        Pretty pathetic!!

        You start with the bogus assertion that, "This is not a right versus left issue.", and finish with, "On the fortunate side, it will be a majority of Democrat children who will suffer…" That is very callous. I did some research and quickly found that the NY teachers union is more against grading the teachers by the Common Core standards than they are about helping the students.

        You complain because math questions are complex and teachers want students to show their work? Are you for real? If you think coddling your child with easy questions will help them into Stanford, you are sadly mistaken.

        Please don't say you are also encouraging the teaching of (un)intelligent design, too.

        • Mike

          I could care less about Common Core one way or another, but how did believing in “Intelligent Design” become a reason for ridicule? There are two main schools of thought for evolution, Darwinism, and Intelligent Design… They are both evolution, and they don’t necessarily contradict one another; one theory believes in completely random mutations, while the other believes the mutations were programmed by a higher being. There are plenty of other perfectly good insults you wonderful people can throw at each other without going down this path.

          • Honest Resident

            Sorry, Mike. This is an absolutely false statement by you, "There are two main schools of thought for evolution, Darwinism, and Intelligent Design." The scientific process proves the theory of evolution is fact, and it is in no way related to the religious theory of intelligent design, as has been proven many times. No amount of science can prove intelligent design. Unless you can prove the existence of a "higher being", which is why it is religion and not science.

            Intelligent Design is worthless from a scientific perspective, but it’s designed to work on a political and social level and this it manages quite well. It won’t convince scientists, but its rhetoric convinces parents, school boards, and politicians eager for any alternative to evolution.

            Please don't pollute our schools with non-science.

          • Mike

            I apologize "Honest Resident," it was not my intent to back you into a corner. However, your mantra that religion and science are not compatible is puzzling to say the least.

            Were you aware that Monseigneur Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître, a Belgian priest, astronomer and professor of physics was the first person to propose the theory of the expansion of the Universe (i.e., The Big Bang Theory), and that his theory does not contradict with biblical teachings in mainstream churches? Perhaps your mind could use some expansion.

            Further, Albert Einstein believed in a God; Mr. Einstein could not reconcile the wonders of the universe without a faith in a divine being… Does he deserve a beat down?

            You can believe whatever you like, it makes no difference to me, but in return, you should allow others to do the same. Just saying.

          • Happy in Ramona

            How can "intelligent" design not be a reason for ridicule? When somebody tells me that a magical sky fairy created the first man from clay, and the first woman from one of his spare ribs I laugh in their face! How can any sane person not laugh in their face?

            The idea that we should be brainwashing children with this backward mush in the 21st century is beyond my comprehension. Never in history have science and technology been more important to a child's education and yet primitive morons still insist we should fill their minds with religious lies instead. Very, very sad.

          • Mike

            Hello “Happy in Ramona,”

            You say “Intelligent Design,” and then you describe Creationism… I’m not sure how you have confused two extremely different ideas!

            Intelligent Design contradicts neither the evolutionary fossil record nor Darwinian evolution. Intelligent Design simply believes a divine being, God if you will, guided this complicated process. I ask you to Google it, and satisfy yourself before continuing through your blissfull life.


          • Happy in Ramona

            Please forgive my confusion Mike – it's hard to keep track of what The God Of The Gaps has been reduced to every week. Just a few short years ago intelligent design was very much purported to be how humans were made too, as used in the canonical example of the watchmaker.

            I suppose it shouldn't surprise me that christians have changed their ideology yet again – and yet again moved even further from what their holy text actually says happened (like man can pick and choose from the word of god – what a joke!). I mean if you now accept that Genesis is rubbish, then why not accept the rest of it is too? If you now believe that the magical sky fairy was the "intelligent designer" who was reduced to nothing more than sparking the big bang, then surely that negates all of the new testament as well?

            To bring this back on topic, the idea that we should be teaching kids this primitive dribble disgusts me.

          • Mike

            Hello "Happy in Ramona,"

            I'm glad you now have Intelligent Design straight in your head, but I'm not sure where you have come up with your history.
            Intelligent Design has been with us a long time, in fact, I was first introduced to the concept as a junior in high school in the 1970s… I must add that it was (and still is) a very high rated public high school in a major city in the Northwest, not some backwater town. And I think you would have benefited greatly if you had been exposed to the same curriculum.


          • Mike

            Continued From Above:

            As a very astute science teacher pointed out during a single 50-minute class period (and he had no agenda one way or the other), if one was to compare Genesis and evolution, one would find that the the Seven "Days" align perfectly with the major units of geological time and definitive events of Earth history: The Hadean eon represents the time before fossil record of life on Earth, followed by the other subdivisions reflect the evolution of life; the Archean and Proterozoic eons, the Palaeozoic, Mesozoic and Cenozoic are eras of the Phanerozoic eon. The two million year Quaternary period is the time of recognizable humans… Need I say more?

            Do I expect you to try to align theology and science? Of course not. Would a little tolerance be nice? Maybe. Would Ramona kids benefit from a few tidbits of practical theology in their science curriculum… I don't think it would hurt.


          • Mayre

            The party of tolerance is the most intolerant of all. You're nice to even try to explain things when you know you're gonna be talked down to by a hypocrite. Common Core is an experiment for which we're all going to pay dearly.

  2. Another Guest

    Here is a typical brain parked Tea Party member who wants children's IQ kept close to the ground, so they can be more easily brainwashed with 18th century's superstitious beliefs.
    The same member who wants all people to own and bear arms, no matter what their mental balance is.
    I cannot believe that such people still exist in 2014!!!

    • Not TeaParty Member

      And most intelligent people can't believe that so many liberals have polluted our schools and our society. Think about this: if America had the mindset we have today in 1941, all of Europe would be speaking German today, and in California we'd be speaking Japanese. And, don't think for a minute that you liberals wouldn't have been the first they'd have killed (same for Al-Qaeda).

      That same liberal mindset has led to the degradation of our society as a whole. Is America better off today than in the 50's? Are more people on welfare? How about education – better today? No way! What's different now? Liberal pollution and infiltration of our school system. The schools are bought and paid for by the CTA. Their agenda is protection of their members, not the education of our kids.

      It is the naive, ideologically blind and ignorant who get their talking points from MSNBC and NPR that are the problem. It would be nice if that garbage stayed down the hill, but apparently it has not.

      • Jane Tanaka MD

        shitsurei ne?
        watashi was garbage ja nai!
        watashi was americanjin desu, even if I can speak Japanese.

      • Sane

        Utter non-sense. I'm guessing you get your talking points from Fox News and Mush Limbaugh. Get a clue! or a fact at least.

        • Not TeaParty Member

          How typical! Anytime somebody doesn't buy into the government taking yet more control of our lives they are labeled as Fox News and Rush Limbaugh followers. I get my news from all sources, including those from the right and the left – then make up my own mind. You should try it sometime.
          The FACT that the CTA runs the schools is irrefutable. The FACT that the American educational system has failed is irrefutable. Look at America's rankings in the world – dropping by the year. The FACT that this country has become soft and that politics, not military necessity, drive wartime decisions is irrefutable. Look at WW2 – carpet bombing of German cities. Look at Afghanistan – hand-wringing over drone strikes. Think we would have won WW2 with today's policies? Didn't think so.
          It is amazing to me that some are willing to give the failed educational establishment even more centralized control. Where have I heard the term Central Planning? Could it have been in Communist Russia in the 30's?
          As for Dr. Tanaka's post – are we supposed to be impressed that you respond in foreign languages?
          People with your mindset are what is wrong with America. We are fading fast because of this kind of nonsense.

          • Sane

            It's okay for you to presume I watch MSNBC and NPR but I cannot assume you watch Fox? I was just handing you some of your own garbage and you swallowed it. I guess the only way for me to "make up my own mind" is by agreeing with you. The CTA is a union, the Superintendents don’t work for them. Not sure you remember labor before unions – I hear it was much better. Everyone in the world comes here for the best education. Do you trust all that rankings data as factual? Do you think its honest? How many kids in these higher ranking countries are counted? or is it just the primo population? Do you really think we should return to carpet bombing? Just like in WWII, if someone attacked the UK today I'm pretty sure we'd kick their ass. You said, "People with your mindset are what is wrong with America" Should I just agree with you and get in line? Who's the communist now? Then you said, "We are fading fast". Please, keep thinking that way, so the rest of us can leap over you and succeed.

          • Not TeaParty Member

            Better yet, you just keep going the way you are. Pretty soon you will find yourself wondering what happened. On the bright side, youll have your comrades at MSNBC and the CTA to keep feeding you and the other ill informed their propaganda. As for me, I'll spend my time dealing with those with enough intellect to research for themselves, gather data from media outlets that are nothing more than DNC propaganda outlets, and look beyond the brainwashing they've received from the failed educational establishment.

    • CA Smith

      Anyone reading the above from "Another Guest" should research the logical fallacy called Straw Man, and then re-read his comments.

      When you do that I think you will find that Guest has misrepresented the position and statements of the right, then argued against them as if they were true representations.

      a. No member of the Tea Party has ever stated or argued that children's IQ should be reduced or kept low.
      b. No individual in favor of the 2nd Amendment has ever argued for gun rights for the mentally unstable.

      In my opinion, anyone who resorts to Straw Man tactics to persuade others cannot be trusted, and disrespects his audience.

  3. Happy in Ramona

    Any time somebody brings up "moral truths" in an argument like this I immediately substitute it with "backward myths". Just come out and say you want to teach children creationism in science and Noah's flood in history – at least have the courage to stand by your nonsensical beliefs.

    We need a common core to prevent exactly this kind of person from polluting the minds of yet another generation of children, and I am 110% for it. If only the common core would also do away with making children pledge allegiance to flag like little proto-fascists then I would be for it 120%.

    • Ramona Resident

      Ramona was a nice place to live before all these leftist came here. Take your garbage back where you came from. The Bay Area, Los Angeles, New England – any of those cesspools would welcome you with open arms. As for us, please trying to protect us from what you perceive as our "backward" ways. This country did pretty well with that way of living.

    • CA Smith

      Please refer to my previous remark about Straw Man fallacy. "Happy in Ramona" is, in my humble opinion, practicing the same fallacy. But do your own research, and then make up your own mind.

      I have my own opinion of someone who thinks pledging allegiance is the act of a proto-fascist.

  4. Notateapartywacko

    Who thinks Honest Resident Another Guest and Happy in Ramona are the same person ?

    • Ramona Resident

      I hope so! Better to have one wacko in town than two!

      These are probably the same people who used to hold up signs at the corner of 10th and Main – the Bush Lied crowd. I wonder where they were after Benghazi, the IRS scandal, the Obamacare roll out.? I guess only Republican presidents can lie in their eyes.

    • Honest Resident

      Pretty weak, is that your comeback to the reply I posted? Any fact at all with which you can respond? No. I didn't expect it, so you don't have to respond again. It's ok.

      I don't know the other two posters but, thankfully, more people in Ramona are wise to the tea party and non-thinkers who are trying to hold back our children.

  5. Diane Chapman

    I find it interesting to read the posts about me and label me when you have no idea who I am.

    Let me share more facts will all of you who feel Common Core is a good thing.

    When I first heard about this top down government funded program, I researched it on the web to find out the history. The "why" behind it. After all, weren't states and local communities suppose to be the ones who decided what the kids were to learn?
    I read a report by Joe Esposito called Tangled Web: The Mastery Learning/OBE/STW-TQM. He was a businessman from Oklahoma appointed to the state's executive council for School to Work in the mid 1990's. In that capacity, a number of documents from SCANS-the US Secretary's Commission on Achieving Necessary Skills-came to his attention and it disturbed him greatly. Because he was vocal about his concerns, he was removed from the council.
    Esposito opposed efforts to prepare American children for the global marketplace by subsuming local educational systems into a single entity with the country's workforce: "The vision is to createa 'seamless web of human resource development"(NCEE Marc Tucker et al). The culmination is federally supported systemic education reform or School -to-Work(STW) workforce training from preschool to through higher education, and beyond-in compliance with United Nations lifelong learning plans. More accurately, this is lifelong indoctrination for servitude-an important part of "world-class standards.' Targeting all schooling-public and PRIVATE-STW reforms link all levels of what was a vehicle for learning and educating. Fully implemented, all schools will be vocational, all children will have a career path no later than the 7th grade, and all children/adults will be credentialed through a national/international job certification system." (Esposito, pg vii,). The following is from an article from Stephanie Block who has studied this area of education and notes-
    "The report documents this effort, quoting copiously from source materials. If one hasn't already seen these, its worth the gander for their historical perspective and as a foundation for understanding current developments. The Workforce Development system, begun in 1998 with passage of the Workforce Investment ACT (WIA), is now fully entrenched. Together with its School-to-Work initiatives, the law created local and state boards as well as industry clusters(networks of associated businesses) across the country.
    She continues- hang in there, we are going to connect the dots-
    "Still, the system isn't as comprehensive as social planners intend. "While there have been pockets of success(in the local public -work-force system WIA started)throughout the USA, most would agree that we are a long way from sustainable, systemic approach to workforce development that addresses a fundamentally transformed US and global economy." A "sustainable", systemic approach is one that will provide"access to ongoing career management supports, longer-term career trainging and education programs, and timely, high-quality information about skill needs and occupation requirements. (Introduction, Page 1). It will move from geographically -based management of the labor force to market-based and industry -based management. (P.11). And, it will intersect with the education system, with increasingly connected sytems, organizations, and institutions. 1
    Enter Common Core-
    The next step in building a seamless system of Workforce Development and education.
    Enter Jeb Bush and his Foundatin for Excellence in Education, Bill and Melinda Gates, and IBM's ex -CEO Gerstner. They have asked the government to privatize all education in order to implement the Soviet polytechnical workforce training system called for by Carnegie in 1934.

    Once an education entity, public or private, accepts one penny of federal money it must adhere to federal regulations regarding curriculum, testing, hiring, etc.

    Common Core is thus-the deliberate dumbing down of America and eliminating the influence of a child's parents(moral, religion, national patriotism), and mold the child into a member of the proletariat in preparation for a socialist-collectivist world of the future.

    1. Kathy Krepcio and Michele Martin. "The State of the U.S. Workforce System: A Time For INcremental Realignment or Serious Reform?

    • Honest Resident

      Please stop recycling your old posts and pretending these are fresh thoughts and contain relevant arguments. I found this verbatim as a post on the Patch from last Oct.

      Regardless of your old post, your assertion that the publication "The Tangled Web…" is somehow an authoritative source does not lend any validity to your statements. Anyone can read it off the web, it's another wild conspiracy piece that is ham handed and utterly unbelievable by critical thinking people. I certainly encourage folks to go read this if you're looking to amuse yourself with more conspiracy charges than you'll find at a convention called for those insist Oswald had help on the grassy knoll.

      Your fear of the government of our founders is very misplaced. Please stop trying to prevent the citizens of Ramona from improving, and modernizing, the education of our children.

  6. Just a dad

    Ms,. Chapman. Where were you a year ago with this article? The district has been talking about adopting the common core for a long time, it's been very public, and discussed at many board meetings. Now only after they've accepted the government money and implemented it, now you put a cry out to "stop"? How do you expect that to happen? Also, I found many of your points interesting and concerning, but your whole tone is one of hysteria and 100% negativity against this curriculum. You present none of the benefits (and there must be something) or positive aspects, and to me this makes you less creditble. Please present something more balanced and maybe I'll pay more attention.

    • CA Smith

      Maybe there are no benefits or positive aspects to present. If so, should she make them up? Or, how about the supporters of Common Core presenting them in this forum? IMHO a critic of a program is not required to argue for the other side.

      If you do find many of her points interesting and concerning, maybe you should do some research of your own instead of simply discarding everything she has to say.

  7. Sane

    Diane, Moscow just called. Relax. The illuminati have everything under control. OMG

  8. Guest

    This subject seems to have gotten people fired up. I've read a lot about Common Core and have some serious reservations. On the surface it sounds like a great idea to establish standardized educational standards. I think the problem will be in its implementation. I've yet to see a government program achieve what it has set out to achieve. Typically, a disproportionate sum of money is allocated to multiple layers of administration, each requiring reams of paperwork submitted from lower levels of the pyramid, all with the purpose of justifying their existence. What ends up being sacraficed is the original stated goal, in this case, education. I suspect this will become a burocratic nightmare that will result in huge cost overruns and poor implementation that fails to achieve improved results. I can't think of a single government program that has produced a different outcome.

    • just a dad

      Can't argue with you there. The common core, from what I've read, has a lot of terrific qualities, but I don't know if any school districts will be able to pull it off. Instead of taking a "lets see" approach, lets all stay informed and see if we can influence change. The district is starting to listen to us on other stuff.

  9. Jim

    I see home schooling in my 3 childrens future!!!

    • Sane

      Be sure to brush up on your grammar first. The possessive form of children is children's. It is their future I think you are referring to. The future that they have to secure gainful employment in. Using more than one exclamation point is also improper.

      • Another Guest

        Just because somebody has an opposing view doesn't mean you have to be a sarcastic jerk. It doesn't help make your point.

      • Google

        Hello Sane,

        As Mike so correctly pointed out, you may want to brush up on your own grammar prior to setting yourself up as grammar queen for someone else. "The future that they have to secure gainful employment in." This is both an incomplete sentence and one which ends in a preposition. Multiple exclamation points would have been far less offensive to my eyes.

  10. Mike

    …It would probably help not to end a sentence with a preposition when correcting another person's grammar.

    • somewhiteguysblog

      Sadly, YOU are dead-wrong, Mike. That isn't a rule — it's an over-popularized grammatical misconception that has been propagated by rule-mongers since the 1600s. Ending a sentence with a preposition is perfectly fine, according to sources such as the Oxford English Dictionary and the AP Style Manual. Go look for yourself if you don't believe me.

  11. Sane

    Fair enough. Ending a sentence in a preposition isn't really a rule; it's more of a preference. (
    Just to be safe, I will be keeping my kids in school.

    • guest

      prepositions at the end of a sentence is fair enough if you make your own rule and apply it. this kind of double talk is so common these days. common core and /or old school…..I think our kids will grow up and be just fine.

      • guest

        I suspect you are correct – but what a vigorous discussion! This 'serious discussion' apparently even devolves into personal attacks. A 'Jerry Springer' kinda' moment right here in River City (Ramona) don't ya' think?

        I agree with you that the kids will grow up and be just fine.

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